[aklug] Re: Rebasing the discussion

Your not wrong Eddie. None of us want to help someone who does nothing =20
to help themselves.

Quoting captgoodnight captgoodnight <captgoodnight@hotmail.com>:

>
> Yeah, your probably right. Okay, back to work and lurking. Good luck fella=
s.
> --eddie
>
>
>> Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 19:10:18 +0000
>> From: damien@linuxninjas.tv
>> To: captgoodnight@hotmail.com
>> CC: aklug@aklug.org
>> Subject: Re: [aklug] Re: Rebasing the discussion
>>
>> That's like saying we shouldn't help anyone. I wonder what all that =20
>> Linux documentation is for. Hmm... I thought it was to help people. =20
>> Guess not. And maybe we should tell the open source community not =20
>> to write documentation cause that might help the new user.
>>
>> I don't understand why helping people has turned into something =20
>> evil. If it is truly evil then we shouldn't even have a group. =20
>> Cause you know what. The group has helped me more then once. And I =20
>> was a new user at one point.
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "captgoodnight captgoodnight" <captgoodnight@hotmail.com>
>> To: aklug@aklug.org
>> Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 11:02:02 AM GMT -09:00 Alaska
>> Subject: [aklug] Re: Rebasing the discussion
>>
>>
>> "Is this something the group is willing to do?"
>>
>> It's something the new user should be willing to do, before ever =20
>> potentially expecting a group to do it for them.
>>
>> If you see Tux in the road, kill him!
>> Eat your fish in the shadows, not in the streets!
>> A penguin will see Tux when he is ready.
>>
>> http://www.google.com/linux?hl=3Den&q=3D
>>
>> 2 cents,
>> --eddie
>>
>>
>>
>> > Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 18:41:28 +0000
>> > From: damien@linuxninjas.tv
>> > To: acorliss@nevaeh-linux.org
>> > CC: aklug@aklug.org
>> > Subject: [aklug] Re: Rebasing the discussion
>> >
>> > I agree with most of this. However, I still think we should be =20
>> open to all =3D
>> > users. This doesn't mean I want to feed them some info and send =20
>> them on the=3D
>> > re way. We need to give them some level of training. That brings =20
>> me to my s=3D
>> > econd issue.=3D20
>> >
>> > I don't believe AKLUG is organized or professional enough to give =20
>> any real =3D
>> > training. Not yet anyway. I'm going through computer training at =20
>> Charter Co=3D
>> > llege. That's serious training. I don't think we need to go that =20
>> far. I do =3D
>> > believe that a formal approach to Linux training would help a =20
>> lot. That tak=3D
>> > es time, effort and planning.
>> >
>> > Is this something the group is willing to do?
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Arthur Corliss" <acorliss@nevaeh-linux.org>
>> > To: aklug@aklug.org
>> > Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 9:18:30 AM GMT -09:00 Alaska
>> > Subject: [aklug] Rebasing the discussion
>> >
>> > Greetings:
>> >
>> > We've definitely gone off on a hell of a tangent on this discussion, an=
d
>> > from some of the responses I fear people may misinterpret my =20
>> position. =3DC2=3D
>> > =3DA0So,
>> > I'd like a chance to refocus the discussion on the core question, =20
>> originall=3D
>> > y
>> > presented by Jon: =3DC2=3DA0what is our goal?
>> >
>> > Before answering that I would take a step back further and ask who (AKL=
UG)
>> > are we? =3DC2=3DA0The obvious answer is that we're a Linux advocacy =20
>> group. =3DC2=3D
>> > =3DA0At its
>> > most shallow definition that means we're just a local PR outfit. =20
>> =3DC2=3DA0At a
>> > deeper level, though, I think it was intended that we be part of the Li=
nux
>> > and OSS community.
>> >
>> > I don't think anyone here would deny that we are or should be part of t=
he
>> > "community" and community-minded. =3DC2=3DA0But I'm not sure everyone h=
ere has
>> > understood the implications.
>> >
>> > Let's go back a moment to Eric Raymond's "The Cathedral and the Bazaar"=
.
>> > Linux, according to his analogy, is the bazaar model. =3DC2=3DA0A lot =
=20
>> of OSS so=3D
>> > ftware
>> > is also developed in the bazaar model. =3DC2=3DA0The bazaar is that =20
>> chaotic mar=3D
>> > ket
>> > place with a hundred stalls, with vendors buying and selling, sometimes
>> > combining the wares of other stalls into new wares in their =20
>> stall. =3DC2=3DA0It=3D
>> > 's a
>> > collaborative environment where the product is dynamically shaped by bo=
th
>> > buyers and sellers, each according to their whims.
>> >
>> > Now, it is definitely possible for an individual to come into the bazaa=
r,
>> > purchase something from a stall, and go home. =3DC2=3DA0That's a protot=
ypical
>> > consumer, not a member of the bazaar community. =3DC2=3DA0Shopping at =
=20
>> Walmart i=3D
>> > n the
>> > Valley makes me no more a member of that community than shopping here i=
n
>> > Anchorage does. =3DC2=3DA0Consumption is a one-way relationship, a =20
>> unidirection=3D
>> > al
>> > transaction. =3DC2=3DA0Relationships aren't built that way, nor does =
=20
>> any meanin=3D
>> > gful
>> > collaboration.
>> >
>> > And that's the point of the bazaar. =3DC2=3DA0Some of us may think =20
>> we're member=3D
>> > s of
>> > the Linux/OSS community merely because we use it. =3DC2=3DA0But I =20
>> don't think t=3D
>> > hat's
>> > the case. =3DC2=3DA0Users are consumers. =3DC2=3DA0You may tell your =
=20
>> friends about =3D
>> > the great
>> > product that you purchased at the bazaar, but that doesn't make =20
>> you a membe=3D
>> > r
>> > of that bazaar, either. =3DC2=3DA0In order to be a member of the =20
>> community you =3D
>> > need
>> > to contribute, establish and nourish relationships, participate in the
>> > development of the product.
>> >
>> > Take Damien's desires, for example. =3DC2=3DA0The contribution and =20
>> maintenance =3D
>> > of
>> > documentation is a valid participation in the bazaar. =3DC2=3DA0So is =
=20
>> beta-test=3D
>> > ing
>> > new versions of your favorite app/distro and providing feedback to the
>> > developers. =3DC2=3DA0And so is slinging and releasing code.
>> >
>> > Jon, he's just an angry bald guy. =3DC2=3DA0But, so am I, so I can =20
>> sympathize. =3D
>> > =3DC2=3DA0;-)
>> >
>> > So, out of this whole "RTFM =3D3D=3D3D Elitism" debate we've been =20
>> having my con=3D
>> > cerns
>> > over the direction of this group has solidified somewhat. =20
>> =3DC2=3DA0If AKLUG is=3D
>> > truly
>> > to be a community participant, and not just a consumer of the community
>> > product, we cannot have as our primary focus the recruitment of =20
>> more users.
>> > Users should be welcome, certainly, but we have limited resources, limi=
ted
>> > volunteer hours, and limited effort being put into this group. =20
>> =3DC2=3DA0We nee=3D
>> > d to
>> > create an enticing environment for producers, builders, =20
>> *participants*. =3DC2=3D
>> > =3DA0And
>> > the prerequisite to that is to develop within ourselves that level of
>> > participation and, when others have their curiosity piqued, provide
>> > opportunities for newcomers to participate as well.
>> >
>> > Something just occurred to me: =3DC2=3DA0say Damien does write the =20
>> manual, and =3D
>> > then
>> > we tell the newbies to read it -- does that make all of you elitists as
>> > well? =3DC2=3DA0;-)
>> >
>> > Anyway, I'd like to see a concerted effort within the group to not bree=
d
>> > mere Linux consumerism, but more stalls set up in the bazaar. =20
>> =3DC2=3DA0Thinkin=3D
>> > g that
>> > doing the former will be the gateway drug to the latter is extremely
>> > optimistic in my mind, especially when we're not demonstrating the baza=
ar
>> > ourselves. =3DC2=3DA0If we fail to do this we'll only end up with an =
=20
>> extraordin=3D
>> > arily
>> > large, needy, and angry mob in the middle of the plaza, with perhaps on=
ly
>> > three stalls to serve them all.
>> >
>> > Linux and OSS will not be sustained that way. =3DC2=3DA0Just my $0.10.
>> >
>> > =3DC2=3DA0=3DC2=3DA0=3DC2=3DA0=3DC2=3DA0=3DC2=3DA0=3DC2=3DA0=3DC2=3DA0=
=3DC2=3DA0=3DC2=3DA0--Arthur Corliss
>> > =3DC2=3DA0=3DC2=3DA0=3DC2=3DA0=3DC2=3DA0=3DC2=3DA0=3DC2=3DA0=3DC2=3DA0=
=3DC2=3DA0=3DC2=3DA0 =3DC2=3DA0Live =20
>> Free or D=3D
>> > ie
>> > ---------
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>> >
>> >
>> > --=3D20
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>>
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Received on Thu Sep 17 12:47:24 2009