[aklug] Re: Rebasing the discussion

That's like saying we shouldn't help anyone. I wonder what all that Linux d=
ocumentation is for. Hmm... I thought it was to help people. Guess not. And=
 maybe we should tell the open source community not to write documentation =
cause that might help the new user.=20

I don't understand why helping people has turned into something evil. If it=
 is truly evil then we shouldn't even have a group. Cause you know what. Th=
e group has helped me more then once. And I was a new user at one point.=20

----- Original Message -----
From: "captgoodnight captgoodnight" <captgoodnight@hotmail.com>
To: aklug@aklug.org
Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 11:02:02 AM GMT -09:00 Alaska
Subject: [aklug] Re: Rebasing the discussion

"Is this something the group is willing to do?"

It's something the new user should be willing to do, before ever potentiall=
y expecting a group to do it for them.=20

If you see Tux in the road, kill him!=20
Eat your fish in the shadows, not in the streets!
A penguin will see Tux when he is ready.

http://www.google.com/linux?hl=3Den&q=3D

2 cents,
--eddie

> Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 18:41:28 +0000
> From: damien@linuxninjas.tv
> To: acorliss@nevaeh-linux.org
> CC: aklug@aklug.org
> Subject: [aklug] Re: Rebasing the discussion
>=20
> I agree with most of this. However, I still think we should be open to al=
l =3D
> users. This doesn't mean I want to feed them some info and send them on t=
he=3D
> re way. We need to give them some level of training. That brings me to my=
 s=3D
> econd issue.=3D20
>=20
> I don't believe AKLUG is organized or professional enough to give any rea=
l =3D
> training. Not yet anyway. I'm going through computer training at Charter =
Co=3D
> llege. That's serious training. I don't think we need to go that far. I d=
o =3D
> believe that a formal approach to Linux training would help a lot. That t=
ak=3D
> es time, effort and planning.
>=20
> Is this something the group is willing to do?
>=20
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Arthur Corliss" <acorliss@nevaeh-linux.org>
> To: aklug@aklug.org
> Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 9:18:30 AM GMT -09:00 Alaska
> Subject: [aklug] Rebasing the discussion
>=20
> Greetings:
>=20
> We've definitely gone off on a hell of a tangent on this discussion, and
> from some of the responses I fear people may misinterpret my position. =
=3DC2=3D
> =3DA0So,
> I'd like a chance to refocus the discussion on the core question, origina=
ll=3D
> y
> presented by Jon: =3DC2=3DA0what is our goal?
>=20
> Before answering that I would take a step back further and ask who (AKLUG=
)
> are we? =3DC2=3DA0The obvious answer is that we're a Linux advocacy group=
. =3DC2=3D
> =3DA0At its
> most shallow definition that means we're just a local PR outfit. =3DC2=3D=
A0At a
> deeper level, though, I think it was intended that we be part of the Linu=
x
> and OSS community.
>=20
> I don't think anyone here would deny that we are or should be part of the
> "community" and community-minded. =3DC2=3DA0But I'm not sure everyone her=
e has
> understood the implications.
>=20
> Let's go back a moment to Eric Raymond's "The Cathedral and the Bazaar".
> Linux, according to his analogy, is the bazaar model. =3DC2=3DA0A lot of =
OSS so=3D
> ftware
> is also developed in the bazaar model. =3DC2=3DA0The bazaar is that chaot=
ic mar=3D
> ket
> place with a hundred stalls, with vendors buying and selling, sometimes
> combining the wares of other stalls into new wares in their stall. =3DC2=
=3DA0It=3D
> 's a
> collaborative environment where the product is dynamically shaped by both
> buyers and sellers, each according to their whims.
>=20
> Now, it is definitely possible for an individual to come into the bazaar,
> purchase something from a stall, and go home. =3DC2=3DA0That's a prototyp=
ical
> consumer, not a member of the bazaar community. =3DC2=3DA0Shopping at Wal=
mart i=3D
> n the
> Valley makes me no more a member of that community than shopping here in
> Anchorage does. =3DC2=3DA0Consumption is a one-way relationship, a unidir=
ection=3D
> al
> transaction. =3DC2=3DA0Relationships aren't built that way, nor does any =
meanin=3D
> gful
> collaboration.
>=20
> And that's the point of the bazaar. =3DC2=3DA0Some of us may think we're =
member=3D
> s of
> the Linux/OSS community merely because we use it. =3DC2=3DA0But I don't t=
hink t=3D
> hat's
> the case. =3DC2=3DA0Users are consumers. =3DC2=3DA0You may tell your frie=
nds about =3D
> the great
> product that you purchased at the bazaar, but that doesn't make you a mem=
be=3D
> r
> of that bazaar, either. =3DC2=3DA0In order to be a member of the communit=
y you =3D
> need
> to contribute, establish and nourish relationships, participate in the
> development of the product.
>=20
> Take Damien's desires, for example. =3DC2=3DA0The contribution and mainte=
nance =3D
> of
> documentation is a valid participation in the bazaar. =3DC2=3DA0So is bet=
a-test=3D
> ing
> new versions of your favorite app/distro and providing feedback to the
> developers. =3DC2=3DA0And so is slinging and releasing code.
>=20
> Jon, he's just an angry bald guy. =3DC2=3DA0But, so am I, so I can sympat=
hize. =3D
> =3DC2=3DA0;-)
>=20
> So, out of this whole "RTFM =3D3D=3D3D Elitism" debate we've been having =
my con=3D
> cerns
> over the direction of this group has solidified somewhat. =3DC2=3DA0If AK=
LUG is=3D
> truly
> to be a community participant, and not just a consumer of the community
> product, we cannot have as our primary focus the recruitment of more user=
s.
> Users should be welcome, certainly, but we have limited resources, limite=
d
> volunteer hours, and limited effort being put into this group. =3DC2=3DA0=
We nee=3D
> d to
> create an enticing environment for producers, builders, *participants*. =
=3DC2=3D
> =3DA0And
> the prerequisite to that is to develop within ourselves that level of
> participation and, when others have their curiosity piqued, provide
> opportunities for newcomers to participate as well.
>=20
> Something just occurred to me: =3DC2=3DA0say Damien does write the manual=
, and =3D
> then
> we tell the newbies to read it -- does that make all of you elitists as
> well? =3DC2=3DA0;-)
>=20
> Anyway, I'd like to see a concerted effort within the group to not breed
> mere Linux consumerism, but more stalls set up in the bazaar. =3DC2=3DA0T=
hinkin=3D
> g that
> doing the former will be the gateway drug to the latter is extremely
> optimistic in my mind, especially when we're not demonstrating the bazaar
> ourselves. =3DC2=3DA0If we fail to do this we'll only end up with an extr=
aordin=3D
> arily
> large, needy, and angry mob in the middle of the plaza, with perhaps only
> three stalls to serve them all.
>=20
> Linux and OSS will not be sustained that way. =3DC2=3DA0Just my $0.10.
>=20
> =3DC2=3DA0=3DC2=3DA0=3DC2=3DA0=3DC2=3DA0=3DC2=3DA0=3DC2=3DA0=3DC2=3DA0=3D=
C2=3DA0=3DC2=3DA0--Arthur Corliss
> =3DC2=3DA0=3DC2=3DA0=3DC2=3DA0=3DC2=3DA0=3DC2=3DA0=3DC2=3DA0=3DC2=3DA0=3D=
C2=3DA0=3DC2=3DA0 =3DC2=3DA0Live Free or D=3D
> ie
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>=20
>=20
> --=3D20
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>=20
 =09=09 =09 =09=09 =20
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Received on Thu Sep 17 11:10:39 2009