Re: [Fwd: Re: AKLUG server]

You make some good points. However, compiling from source is not always
possible. I don't think anyone will find it easy to setup a workstation
from source. Compiling X, Gnome and what ever else one might need is
crazy. Sure one might learn something but at some point I need to get
work done. I only mention this because I've tried.

We could all run LFS.

As a business owner and network/system engineer I have to evaluate
everything I do. Lets use my current clients as an example.

   1. New server
   2. about 2 tarabytes of data at the moment
   3. Website, data storage, email are all on this server

Lets say I decided to use Slackware. It's stable and secure so why not.
What happens if Patrick Volkerding ( the Slackware founder ) decides not
to do Slackware any more. Or worse he dies. It almost happened. He got
sick from brushing his teeth a few years back. It almost killed him.
Back then he was the only guy maintaining Slackware. Lets say for
argument sake there is no more Slackware. What do I do?

   1. I've got an OS that can't be updated
         1. No security patches
         2. No upgrading to a new version
   2. I've got 2 tarabytes of data that need to go somewhere
         1. Maybe I don't want the data on the server because it can't
            be updated (security)
         2. Maybe the client doesn't want his/her data on the server
            because it can't be updated
   3. Who pays for the cost of the reinstall and data transfer
         1. I was the one who recommended the Slackware OS
         2. Who pays for the down time the business will experience
            while the server is down

In this little scenario Linux didn't go away but Slackware did.

Lets say I decide to compile all my applications from source to keep
them updated. That will work for a while. However, the libraries in
Slack will become old. At some point I will no longer be able to use
them. One of my applications will look for a new library and I will be
SOL. I could try and update the Libraries but then I'm maintaining my
own distribution. I don't want to do that.

I should have used Novell for the above scenario. Think of all the
servers out there running SUSE. What will they do when Novell is gone.

The above is the business side of me. The geek in me wants to compile.
Maybe it's time I do LFS.

Oh, hope those Slackware packages are working out for you. I could be
wrong but aren't those just tar files? Also RTFM before you upgrade to a
new version. You have to do it the "Slackware way". I guess they didn't
like the "standard" method of upgrading Linux. If you do it wrong you
could end up with a broken system. ;-)

jonr@destar.net wrote:
> Quoting Damien Hull <dhull@digitaloverload.net>:
>
>
>> Forgot to send this to the list.
>>
>
> Damn that reply-to/reply-to all!
>
>
> And before I start to reply let me say this. I consider Damien a friend and a
> competent linux/freebsd admin, though some of his questions to the list make me
> question that. j/k ;^)
>
> This is not meant to be a slam against him in any way, it is just something I
> have been watching on the list for awhile.
>
>
>> I should start out by saying I don't know a lot about the Corliss
>> distro. However, I have compiled apache, mysql and php from source. It's
>> not an easy task. When we tried to install these applications on the
>> Corliss distro there were problems.
>>
>
> It's not ever easy to compile everything by source but you sure understand what
> it takes for your app when your done.
>
>
>> 1. Applications were in places I've never seen them in
>>
>
> The dev tools? What applications are in the wrong place?
>
>
>> 2. Some software was old ( can't remember what )
>>
>
> Actually the whole box is as updated as they come, at least it should have been,
> Mike?
>
>
>> 3. Mike couldn't figure out the problem
>>
>> If Mike can't figure out the problem what hope do the rest of us have.
>>
>
> Ok, no offense to Mike but he is not the greatest sysadmin the world has ever
> known. He has gaps like the rest of us, just because Mike couldn't figure it
> out doesn't mean that it is too difficult for anyone else.
>
>
>> As a system administrator there are a few things I need to take into
>> consideration when building a server.
>>
>> 1. Who will help me when things go wrong? (tech support)
>>
>
> This is the one that is killing me. You should not need any help, you know Linux
> and you know how to read the errors and compile from source. Besides your
> knowledge, we are a Linux Users Group, we should know this stuff.
>
>
>> 2. How easy is it to maintain?
>>
>
> The Corliss distro is easy to maintain, there are a few things to look out for
> but those are mostly security related. Root cannot log into the box remotely,
> users have to be added to the ssh-group to be allowed to ssh to the box,
> etc,etc. Security is a good thing.
>
>
>> 3. Will the OS be there for me in 5 years or so? (updates etc...)
>>
>
> I believe Linux will be around in 5 years.
>
>
>> I'll use Ubuntu Dapper as an example.
>>
>> 1. It has 5 years of updates on the server
>> 2. I get support from the Ubuntu forums, mailing list, IRC and AKLUG
>> 3. To get updates I just type "sudo apt-get upgrade"
>>
>
> Now there is nothing like this for Corliss distro and the update process is
> different than ubuntu but there is a process and it is easy. We should be able
> to support ourselves at this point. When I need support for Nevaeh I use the
> slack and LFS lists for answers, why? Because they are source based with no
> wrapper scripts hiding the real tool from me.
>
>
>> I'm sure the Corliss distro is stable and secure. However, after
>> evaluating the situation I think the Corliss distribution is the wrong
>> tool for the job.
>>
>
> How long did you evaluate the distro before you made your decision? Has every
> distro that you have used been given the same amount of time as Nevaeh to
> evaluate?
>
>
>
>> That brings up another issue. Just because you
>> know something about Linux does not mean you can maintain any Linux
>> distribution. Try going from Suse or Debian to Slack. If you have never
>> tried Slackware it'll be FUN! ;-)
>>
>
> Let me say this, I have never used debian, except for one bad install but I did
> configure the network on debian from cli. I knew how to do this because I don't
> have any distro specific tools that I am reliant upon. The tools that are on
> Nevaeh are on every Linux distro, why? Because they are the base tools that all
> distros use, ever look at ifup/ifdown? Both are just wrappers for the same
> program found on all Linux distros.
>
> When you use a helper script from a specific distro you lose the knowledge of
> how it is really done. At that point, you are right, now you can't switch
> easily between distros because you are used to the wrapper scripts for the
> basic tools. I can move between distros because I have an understanding of the
> base system, which is the same for all distros.
>
> For example, the 'ifconfig' command works the same on all distros, even the
> ones that have 'ifup/ifdown' wrappers for 'ifconfig'.
>
> I do use Slack and it is very similar to Nevaeh, it is a source based distro.
>
>
> To sum up and end this on my side, this is what I am hearing from the group and
> it is a little disconcerting. The various distros have been adding their own
> tools for doing the same thing that can be done from the CLI on every distro
> out there. We need to get back to the basics so we can admin any linux box put
> before us. I have found that since using Nevaeh, I am far more comfortable
> sitting at the console of any linux distro.
>
> And you are right Damien, maybe Nevaeh was not the best choice for the AKLUG OS
> but it has brought to light how dumbed down we are becoming because of the
> distro specific tools. We need to understand the base tools of Linux and how to
> use them, then we can all move freely between distros. Some people might say,
> "Well, that is so early '90's Linux, we now have applications to help us setup
> our wireless networks and configure samba and nfs, why would we want to do it
> the hard way?" And when you get to your new job and they have servers without
> GUI's and a Linux OS that you are not familiar with, which tool do you use to
> configure your VPN?
>
>
>> Oh, how do I get a copy of the "Corliss distro"? I'd like to stick it on
>> my test network and take it out for a spin. :-)
>>
>
> I don't know if Arthur really wants it released into the wild yet but I will see
> if he minds us giving out an iso to the group. I don't see why he would'nt give
> out the iso but for Art, giving out Nevaeh and letting others look at it is
> akin to showing up to school with no clothes on. ;)
>
> Jon
>

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Received on Sat Dec 30 14:26:49 2006