Re: Learning Linux from scratch

What are you after here? Do you want "Linux user" to mean someone who
compiles everything?

At some point we need to get work done. If I need an email client should
I get the Ubuntu package for Thunderbird or should I code my own email
client? Which one do you use?

All this talk about Linux and compiling is crazy. If you want to spend
your life coding your own distribution that's fine. Some people don't
have the skill or the desire to code anything. Does that mean open
source and Linux is not for them? I hope not.

Just because you compile it your self doesn't mean anything. What do you
do if the code you have has an exploit? Do you fix that your self or do
you wait for someone else to do that? If a feature you want isn't in
there are you going to write it your self or wait for someone else to do
it? What about device drives? Do you write them your self or download
someones code?

I'm going to guess that the answer to the above questions is a big fat
NO. Which means you are relying on other peoples code. If you didn't
write the code or read every line of it you have know idea what's in
there. You are compiling code that could have problems. All code has a
few problems. That's why there are updates and bug fixes.

When you get your email client compiled let me know. Oh, wait. If you
want a gui email client you need to write a gui. According to your logic
you can't use the ones that are out there because you don't know what's
in them. Wait, did you check the code in the kernel? I think you might
want to start there. You never know who put what where.

I want open source to be for everyone. Not just a hand full of people
who can type "make install" and fix dependency issues. Which is all you
are doing. Nothing more. Sure it's complex and requires a lot of skill.
But you have know idea what's in the code. Again, unless you write the
code your self or read every line of code the other person wrote you
have no idea what's in it.

I'm not a programmer. That's why I leave the programming to the experts.
There is a team of experts behind distributions like Ubuntu, Debian and
Red Hat. How many developers are behind Neva. One! I'll take a team of
experts over one.

If it sounds like I'm ranting it's because I am. These kind of
conversations need to stop.

Oh, I never did finish LFS. I was able to compile my compiler. Does that
mean anything? No! Not a dam thing! Why? I may have learned more about
Linux and how it's put together but I still can't write a single piece
of code. Which means I have no choice but to except the code others
provide and use it. If there is a problem with the application,
distribution or OS I'll stop using it and find a better one. Or let the
team of developers know and they can fix it for me. ;-)

Jon Reynolds wrote:
> jonr@destar.net wrote:
>
>> Quoting Adam Bultman <adamb@glaven.org>:
>>
>>
>>> barsalou wrote:
>>>
>>>> Damien has mentioned that he is going through LFS and building linux
>>>> from scratch. This is a worthy exercise and anyone wanting to learn
>>>> about Linux from the ground up will be happy they made the trip.
>>>>
>>>> Additionally, since putting the Nevaeh vmplayer appliance on
>>>> ftp.aklug.org, it seems a few of you have downloaded it and only one
>>>> has said they started it and played with it a little.
>>>>
>>>> I'd like to start a series, via e-mail to work with this distribution.
>>>> From my perspective, it's claim to fame is that it is small, versatile
>>>> and aimed at folks wanting to learn linux but also want a production
>>>> level (at least for the server) OS.
>>>>
>>>> Some of Nevaeh's main features are that everything is kept as close to
>>>> the minimum as possible but never cutting you off from expanding things.
>>>>
>>>> If this sounds interesting to you folks, let me know, and I'll put an
>>>> outline together and we can get started.
>>>>
>>>> One question you might ask is, what in the world would you want to use
>>>> such a bare bones distro, when you have Fedora, Suse, Ubuntu?
>>>>
>>>> The simple answer is, I don't want to become a Microsoftie of Linux. I
>>>> think it is awesome that all the neat GUI tools that are out there and
>>>> make my desktop easy to use. But I also want to be able to manipulate
>>>> these things at a closer to the hardware level.
>>>>
>>>> Maybe this doesn't interest everyone....I'm fairly certain about that,
>>>> but hopefully it will provide an avenue of appreciation for all the
>>>> work that distros like Fedora, Suse and Ubuntu do for us.\
>>>>
>
> OK.
>
>
>>> I wanted to respond to this last night, but decided to download the
>>> vmware image and run it to see how things were before I ran my mouth
>>> off. Having downloaded, booted, and played around with nevaeh, I can now
>>> run my mouth off.
>>>
>
> Glad to see you gave it a good long fair review.
>
>
>>> Regarding nevaeh:
>>> ____________________
>>> I think the complete lack of any email threads about nevaeh speaks
>>> volumes.
>>>
>
> Not really.
>
> Out of the entire lug, I have only heard two people speak
>
>>> about it until today: Mike Barsalou and Shane Spencer. Continuing to
>>> push nevaeh, which is small, managed and updated by one user, and
>>> un-documented
>>>
>
> There is a thing called the "man" pages.
>
> , would be a disservice to people at aklug as well as
>
>>> anybody who might stop by for a meeting while it is being worked on.
>>>
>
> Not true, linux is linux at it's core, if you know the core of linux you
> know the core of any distro.
>
> It
>
>>> is tiny, yes, and directed, yes, but for 99.999% of users, it is
>>> uninviting, unintuitive, and bested by preexisting distributions.
>>>
>
> Unless you spend more time evaluating it, this is false.
>
>
>>> There's nothing that nevaeh does that gentoo does not; and gentoo has
>>> reams of documentation in multple languages as well as many enthusiasts
>>> more than willing to hold a user's hand through problems. There are
>>> forums and IRC people waiting to help people through with any problems
>>> that might not be already discussed and solved and documented.
>>>
>
> True.
>
>
>>> Regarding being closer to hardware:
>>> ________________________________________
>>>
>>> If one wants to be closer to hardware, then Linux From Scratch is what
>>> you're looking for. Neveah seems no closer to the hardware than gentoo,
>>> and gentoo is a lot more user friendly. I haven't used linux from
>>> scratch, but from what I've read it is very involved and very informative.
>>>
>
> I agree with your LFS statement but because of your time spent
> evaluating Nevaeh, I have to disagree.
>
>
>
>>> Regarding being Microsoftie:
>>> __________________________________
>>>
>>> Seriously now, that's a deliberate attempt to drive a wedge between
>>> linux users. It creates two tiers of users, "those people" an the
>>> elite.
>>>
>
> I took that to mean "vendor lock-in" are you sure that it didn't?
>
> And that pisses me off. I cannot stand "measuring contests",
>
>>> and I get irritated when people "pull rank" when people ask questions.
>>> Just because someone doesn't use nevaeh, Gentoo, or Linux From Scratch,
>>> or hasn't been using linux for 10 years doesn't mean they are a
>>> microsoftie.
>>>
>
> Who has ever acted like that on this list?
>
>
> I got sick of waiting 40 hours for my gentoo build to
>
>>> complete to the point where I could *begin* configuring the beast.
>>>
>
> Yet above you sing gentoo's praises, 40 hours for a build is insane.
> This distro is obviously not geared to the new user.
>
>
>>> In summation:
>>> __________________
>>> 1. Stop pushing nevaeh. It seems as if there is only one interested
>>> user in the entire LUG.
>>>
>
> He wasn't pushing Nevaeh but offering his time to help people to learn
> an OS that encourages you to learn how to do things "The Unix Way".
>
>
>>> 2. If we're going to push "low-level" or whatever, push a more
>>> widely-supported distro: gentoo,linux from scratch, or another.
>>>
>
> LFS would definitely be preferable.
>
>
>>> 3. Let's not create classes of users. The best linux advocates (and
>>> most helpful people) don't give a rat's behind as to how many years
>>> you've put in, how many distros you've ran, or how many computers you
>>> run linux on. They'll answer your question without being derisive no
>>> matter how stupid the question, and will help you learn as much as
>>> possible in the process.
>>>
>
> Who are you talking about? Again, this list has never been like you are
> describing. I owe a lot of debt to AKLUG for all the help over the years
> that they have given me. I have never run across one person that has
> acted in the manner you describe.
>
> People with one more day's experience is often
>
>>> all someone needs to figure something out. The worst linux advocates
>>> and least helpful people are the elitists. "I put in my time, you can
>>> go RTFM for all I care", or "I don't use that newb distro, go find
>>> somebody who does" seems to be very predominant among these users and
>>> tend to not only scare people off, but turn them vehemently against linux.
>>>
>
> Mike never once acted like this in his email, I don't know where you got
> that from but you are completely wrong.
>
>
>>> Disclaimer:
>>> ______________
>>> I do not speak for everyone.
>>>
>
>
> Jon
>
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Received on Thu Mar 15 04:37:58 2007